Making "Herr" Plural

[Sam]

I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the German
word "Herr" and it's listed as:

Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...

Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.

I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

Danke,
Sam

[Oliver Cromm]

Post by Sam
I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the German
Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...
Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

The first will mark the genitive form. You can derive all forms of a
noun from those three data points: gender, genitive, plural, so that's
the usual information given by dictionaries of German.

In the example: the genitive of "Herr" is "Herrn" or "Herren", telling
you that it is a weakly inflected word, and all other inflected forms
are "Herr(e)n" as well.

[Sam]

Post by Oliver Cromm

Post by Sam
I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the German
Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...
Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

The first will mark the genitive form. You can derive all forms of a
noun from those three data points: gender, genitive, plural, so that's
the usual information given by dictionaries of German.
In the example: the genitive of "Herr" is "Herrn" or "Herren", telling
you that it is a weakly inflected word, and all other inflected forms
are "Herr(e)n" as well.
--
The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts agree,
is by accident. That's where we come in; we're computer professionals.
We cause accidents. -- Nathaniel Borenstein

Hmmm. Your answer seems to have opened a can of worms (not sure if
there is a good German translation/meaning for that) for me... My
small step into learning German has not mentioned anything about
genitive forms yet...

About what age do German children get introduced to genitive forms in
school as part of their studies?

Danke,
Sam

[Oliver Cromm]

Post by Sam

Post by Oliver Cromm
The first will mark the genitive form.

Hmmm. Your answer seems to have opened a can of worms (not sure if
there is a good German translation/meaning for that) for me... My
small step into learning German has not mentioned anything about
genitive forms yet...
About what age do German children get introduced to genitive forms in
school as part of their studies?

They may not know the term until middle school (I think in elementary
school it was called "Wesfall"), but the form as such they learn, of
course, around the same time that English children learn to distinguish
"mom's money" and "dad's money" ;-)

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Oliver Cromm

Post by Sam
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

The first will mark the genitive form. You can derive all forms of a
noun from those three data points: gender, genitive, plural, so that's
the usual information given by dictionaries of German.
In the example: the genitive of "Herr" is "Herrn" or "Herren", telling
you that it is a weakly inflected word, and all other inflected forms
are "Herr(e)n" as well.

Correct. Weak declension has the ending -en in the singular in all cases
except nominative and in the plural in all cases, with a small number of
minor variations, one of them being "Herr" (sg.nom.), having "Herrn" in
the singular in all cases except nominative, and "Herren" in the plural in
all cases. The form "Herren" instead of "Herrn" in the singular sounds
archaic.

For more detail see http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~hr/lang/de-decln.html#weak .

[Michael Pachta]

Post by Sam
I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the German
Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...
Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

("e")"n" seems to indicate the genitive form of "Herr", where both
spellings appear to be possible:

nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr

but "des Herren" appears slightly obsolete to me.

Michael

[Einde O'Callaghan]

Michael Pachta schrieb:

<snip>

Post by Michael Pachta
nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr

Shouldn't it be "den Herrn"?

Gruß, Einde O'Callaghan

Post by Michael Pachta
but "des Herren" appears slightly obsolete to me.
Michael

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Einde O'Callaghan

Post by Michael Pachta
nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr

Shouldn't it be "den Herrn"?

It should.

[Michael Pachta]

Post by Einde O'Callaghan

Post by Michael Pachta
accusative: den Herr

Shouldn't it be "den Herrn"?

Yep. Just a typo. Sorry, if I caused any confusion.

Michael

[Ekkehard Dengler]

Post by Michael Pachta

Post by Sam
I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the
Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...
Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.

("e")"n" seems to indicate the genitive form of "Herr", where both
nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr
but "des Herren" appears slightly obsolete to me.

Actually, it's hypercorrect, in other words, wrong.

Regards,
Ekkehard

[Oliver Cromm]

Post by Ekkehard Dengler

Post by Michael Pachta
nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr
but "des Herren" appears slightly obsolete to me.

Actually, it's hypercorrect, in other words, wrong.

Who decides that? It didn't even strike me as obsolete at first. Canoo
lists "Herren", too, for all oblique cases.

<http://services.canoo.com/services/Controller?dispatch=inflection&input=Herr>

[Ekkehard Dengler]

Post by Oliver Cromm

Post by Ekkehard Dengler

Post by Michael Pachta
nominative: der Herr
genitive: des Herrn or des Herren
dative: dem Herrn
accusative: den Herr
but "des Herren" appears slightly obsolete to me.

Actually, it's hypercorrect, in other words, wrong.

Who decides that?

The community of German-speakers, I suppose. "Herr" is apparently irregular.
The Duden grammar (4th. ed.) says that "Die Kurzform '-n' erhalten nur die
Substantive auf '-e' ('des Kunde-n') und das Substantiv 'Herr' ('des
Herr-n'; Plural: 'Herren')."

Post by Oliver Cromm
It didn't even strike me as obsolete at first. Canoo
lists "Herren", too, for all oblique cases.

http://services.canoo.com/services/Controller?dispatch=inflection&input=Herr

So does "Langenscheidts Großwörterbuch Deutsch als Fremdsprache". They're
both wrong, aren't they? I suppose Michael has a point in that "des Herren"
occurs occasionally in old hymns and the like, but I wouldn't regard it as
idiomatic present-day German.

Regards,
Ekkehard

[Sam]

Post by Sam
I'm looking in a Langenscheidt German-English dictionary at the German
Herr "m" (-("e")"n", -"en") ("before name") Mr; ("person")
gentleman; ...
Letters enclosed in "" are italicised.
I'm trying to figure out how to make "Herr" (and other nouns) plural.
The "m" tells me the noun is masculine. I'm confident the -"en" tells
me how to make the noun plural, but what does -("e")"n" tell me? I
don't see reference to this in front of the dictionary.
Danke,
Sam

I'm looking in my dictionary at the German noun "Student(in)" and I
don't see any reference that tells me how to make it plural. Why is
that? How am I suppose to know how to make this noun plural?

Danke sch�n,
Sam

[Andy]

In message <***@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>, Sam
<***@yahoo.com> wrote
[

Post by Sam
I'm looking in my dictionary at the German noun "Student(in)" and I
don't see any reference that tells me how to make it plural. Why is
that? How am I suppose to know how to make this noun plural?

Odd. Mine doesn't have it either. It suggests "Schulkinder" or
"Schueler", both being neuter plural, with the meaning "schoolchildren".

[Oliver Cromm]

Post by Andy
[

Post by Sam
I'm looking in my dictionary at the German noun "Student(in)" and I
don't see any reference that tells me how to make it plural. Why is
that? How am I suppose to know how to make this noun plural?

Odd. Mine doesn't have it either. It suggests "Schulkinder" or
"Schueler", both being neuter plural, with the meaning "schoolchildren".

Let me guess: those are German translations of (Amer.) English
/student/?

As for the original question:

| Stu|dent, der; -en, -en
<http://app.mr-check.de/v2.0/Mrcheck.php?CL=zeit&SP=Student>

| Stu|den|tin, die; -, -nen
<http://app.mr-check.de/v2.0/Mrcheck.php?CL=zeit&SP=Studentin>

[Andy]

Post by Oliver Cromm

Post by Andy
[

Post by Sam
I'm looking in my dictionary at the German noun "Student(in)" and I
don't see any reference that tells me how to make it plural. Why is
that? How am I suppose to know how to make this noun plural?

Odd. Mine doesn't have it either. It suggests "Schulkinder" or
"Schueler", both being neuter plural, with the meaning "schoolchildren".

Let me guess: those are German translations of (Amer.) English
/student/?

Pass :)

They are German translations of British English "schoolchildren", that
is, persons between the ages of about 4 and 16.